Inside Admission Podcast - Episode 5 - Darryl Tiggle - Searching for colleges, tours, & more

Darryl Tiggle - Searching for Colleges, Tours, & More

Andrew Palumbo 

Welcome to Inside Admissions, the podcast that gives you a behind the scenes look at the college admission process with the experts in and around college admission. Welcome to the Inside Admissions podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Palumbo , and I am really excited to have my friend Daryl Tiggle on the podcast today. Welcome, Daryl.

Daryl Tiggle

Thank you, Andrew. So nice to be with you all and really excited to connect with the audience.

Andrew Palumbo 

Daryl, tell us a little bit about yourself, where you work, your role, and your background in higher ed and school counseling.

Daryl Tiggle

Sure. You gavel me down when it gets too long. I'm presently director of College Counseling at Friend School of Baltimore. I'm going into my 12th year of director at this role. P rior to working on the secondary school side, I worked on the other side of college admissions, doing admissions at three different institutions. I worked at Union College, which is my Alma Mater back in the 90s. T hen in 2001, I moved to Boston and I became director of La Salle College, which at the time, making the transition from all women's two year institution to a four year coed institution. A fter my time at La Salle, I moved on to Tufts University, where I worked as a senior associate director, managing lots of different profiles. But one of my main areas of responsibility was diversity recruitment. After a long stint on the admission side, I moved to the other side of the desk, and I've been doing this good work most recently.

Andrew Palumbo 

That's great. Daryl, what was it that made you decide to switch sides of the desk?

Daryl Tiggle

Well, I think the two things that should have... Or the things that I think about when I moved to this side of the desk is that I came from a pretty humble college preparatory background, so I didn't have a lot of college counseling as I was making my own college journey. T hen when I arrived college, I saw that so many people had this experience with a counselor that was guiding them through this process. I was an athlete. I was like, Wow, that's almost like a coach.

Andrew Palumbo 

It sounds like.

Daryl Tiggle

You're totally making sure that you guys were going to win at this college game. I was intrigued by that. Then a couple of years after I graduated from college, I was fortunate to work in college admissions. Then one of the things that you see in college admissions is a real landscape of what the I don't know if it's what the world looks like, but it's what the United States looks like. We travel all over the country, literally every corner of the country, and we visit schools. And schools are where people live. You could see in a very obvious way, even in a day, the difference in how college counseling was being distributed to children based on what school they went to, maybe private versus public, or what socio economic environment they were in. Rich versus medium versus poor. The counseling in the schools, if they were public schools, might even correlate to that. I was always curious about the council students were getting, because again, thinking like an athlete, the college counselor coaches them through the process. I'm like, This college coaching is different at different places. When I worked at Tufts, I worked in admissions for a long time.

Daryl Tiggle

One of the things I noticed is that when I worked at Tufts, after a few years, I started being quartered to come and work in college counseling. T hat's when I was, I think, first thinking about moving to this side of the desk. I understood it in a way that it was mostly, or almost not mostly, exclusively private schools that were reaching out to see if I'd be interested in being their director of college counseling, where comparatively, I was a public school product, and I did really indeed like the work. But one of the things I could not do was college counseling at a public school because I didn't have a counseling degree, like a master's degree. I said, Look, if I'm going to do this stuff, I'm probably going to have to start or at least put my foot on the door in the private school arena. T hat's what I've been doing for the last several years. P eople often ask, Hey, you and I understand why that move might be made, but people that are maybe outside the college admissions bubble often ask, Why do you... That's an interesting move. Why would you go from college admissions to college counseling?

Daryl Tiggle

The way that I help people understand it, I go, If you follow me on this reasoning, law firms, if the law firm does lots of different types of law, if they have a fact, if they have a tax division, they definitely want to go and find a lawyer that used to work at the IRS.

Andrew Palumbo 

I get it.

Daryl Tiggle

I totally get it. They're like, Oh, perfect. I get it.

Andrew Palumbo 

Well, that's a reason why I think you're a great guest for the podcast here because you do have that background of both sides. But one of my favorite parts about this podcast has been just hearing my friends and colleagues different paths to their own college. As a fellow Union guy, I'm curious, what was your story, Daryl? How did you go through the search process? What was important to you and what did that look like?

Daryl Tiggle

It will be interesting, but it is not a search. I'm going to suggest that your listeners follow. That tends to be what.

Andrew Palumbo 

Every guest says, actually.

Daryl Tiggle

I do. I say this to put it into perspective. I'm often asked to come and give presentations about college admissions and how to navigate the process. I'm pretty well experienced in it and knowledgeable, but I'll try to make sure that my audience understands where I'm coming from when I talk about my own journey. I say, Look, when I was 17 and beginning to pursue college, I knew the colleges that everyone knew, the ones that are in your neighborhood, right? I knew what the Ivy League was. I was familiar with Noter Dane, s uper unsophisticated. But I say this, and it sounds funny, but it's not really funny. I didn't know the difference between martial arts and liberal arts. Liberal arts, I didn't know. I had no idea what people were talking about, and I was a pretty bright kid. The other thing that I say that was super tragic, because I went to an excellent college. I went to Union College, and I'll tell you how I got there. But if you would have asked me at 17, and I went to high school right outside of Springfield, Massachusetts, Western Massachusetts, if you would have asked me to bring you to Amherst College when I was 17, I would have taken you to the University of Massachusetts at Amherst.

Daryl Tiggle

I would have not taken you to that super well known, elite liberal arts college. I didn't know it existed and I could ride my bike. That's how unsophisticated I was. Please don't use that in understanding the rest of my insight because I know a lot now. Again, that chasm in college counseling between private school, public school, rich school, poor school. I went to a public, not rich school. College counselor wasn't even a word. Guidance counselor was a reality. I was fortunate and again, you'll have to forgive my arrogance I was fortunate to be a really good football player. So I thought, and so a lot of people thought, and so I thought I was going to go to one of those schools that I had heard of before.

Andrew Palumbo 

Noter.

Daryl Tiggle

Dame, right? Yeah. Noter Dame or the like. Or at least, you mask. That was Division 1 football, and I was good. But I was fortunate and not fortunate to get hurt as a senior in high school. So that college football scholarship journey that I thought I was going to go on, that was no longer a journey. We didn't really have a program for college counseling at my school. I was super blessed that I was still good enough that not Notor Day wanted me anymore, but these small liberal arts colleges that I never heard of before started knocking on my door. T hat's how I was introduced to Union College and the existence of places like Union College.

Andrew Palumbo 

That's great. Thanks for sharing that, Daryl. No problem. Sometimes after hearing folks' stories, I sometimes think those of us who didn't know what we were doing the first time around are just doomed to repeat it year after year now as we work with students and gain that knowledge little by little. But you've got a lot of knowledge, Daryl. You were telling me before this conversation that you've built up something you call Admissions 101 at the Front School. Talk to me about that. Tell our listeners a little bit more about your Admissions 101 and how you recommend students and families begin this process.

Daryl Tiggle

Got you. T he way it works at my school and maybe at many schools that have a committed college counseling role. Truth be told, we're not really encountering the students until they're juniors. We're not working in earnest with them until they're juniors. But the things that will get them into college, obviously, they need to be doing before junior year. When I first came into the role, I was focusing on getting our juniors prepared, our seniors' applications out the door, and really perfecting that work. I was getting all questions from 10th grade and ninth grade and even eighth grade parents about college counseling. What are you talking about? I don't get to talk to you guys till later. But it was obvious to me that it was information they were hungry for, that indeed, the stuff they needed to do to get into college, they needed to know sooner than later. In retrospect, the thing that was really helpful, and it's really been a blessing to the way in which we work with our community, in the absence of them getting information, they might find their own information or draw their own conclusions. I said, Hey, let's get together and do a program for them.

Daryl Tiggle

A gain, truth be told, the first time I scheduled it, I said, Let's do these during the summer. The people that are really interested, if they're interested, they'll come out during the summer. We've got tons of time to do it. I scheduled one and set up in the library, had nothing prepared, just figured I'd come and answer some questions. And 40 parents showed up. Oh, my goodness. What are you people doing? What do you guys want to know? It's fourth of July week. We had a really robust conversation, but I realized that there was a thirst for this information and that we could provide some really good insight that would help our students and families. I said, Let's put together a class like we do with our students because what we do with our students is we try to... One of the things people always asked me because they knew I worked in admissions at a highly selective place, they come to me all the time and say, Hey, Mr. Tabor, do you think I can get into such and such a place? I said, Again, I know a lot, but what I think is not necessarily what you should rest your fate on.

Daryl Tiggle

Let's go and start looking at data. I said, Let's teach our students how admissions works as opposed to guessing how competitive they might be in a place. I said, Let's teach them how admissions works. We broke it down into two classes that we teach during the summer, and then we asked anywhere from ninth grade to eighth grade parents can come. We call one College Counseling 101. We call the second group College Counseling 102. In the first segment, we try to help them understand the landscape of college admissions. One of the things I tell my students and parents, I go, Look, you're super privileged to go here. We've got great college counseling. For anyone who's nervous about this whole college admissions experience, I can right now, in very good confidence, guarantee you your child is going to have lots of college options at the end of this process. Then I wait, 1,001, and they go, doesn't that make you all feel great? No one says, yeah, we need to pay for that guarantee.

Andrew Palumbo 

They all are very disrupted applause. Yeah.

Daryl Tiggle

Hey, why isn't anyone excited? Then someone's brave enough to say, Hey, Mr. Tigger, we need you to guarantee that we'll get into a good school. I go, Perfect. T hen I start helping them examine what is the criteria that makes a school good. W e talk about graduation rate, faculty to student ratio, financial resources, what have you. W e've got a list of about 20 things. I say, Look, and we're all friends here. We're the friend school of Baltimore. T ell me if this second list probably is more about what you think helped determine a good school. T hen it says reputation. I'm not a fan of this show, but it has a picture of the Friends cast. What Friends think about the school. I go, Look, in so much that you're arresting your understanding of what a goodness of school is in that second page, you're missing the ball. You want to arrest your understanding of what goodness of school is in that list of 15 to 20 to 100 things that we can help you, so to determine the goodness of school. I help them understand that. Then this is insight I've just been giving away.

Daryl Tiggle

I should be helping give them insight. I tell them about the shift in admissions, and many of the parents are now my age, where I'm asking for grace prior to. I pick on the Ivy League a lot because I know everyone knows those school's names. They may not know you're in college or Vassar College or some of the other really good, quote unquote good colleges whose names aren't as big. I pick on the Ivies because I know they know their names and that's the one they often bring up. T hey'll say, Well, look, Mr. Tickle, when I was going to college, I was a good student. I got in. My uncle went, my cousin went. I said, Look, how much did gas cost when that was happening? They're like, Oh, you devil. Then I say, Look, these are the changes that changed admissions completely, and they won't change them back, but it's still 0 to 100. It's still A, B, C, D, E, F. Nothing has changed about admissions other than the landscape, which is super changed. At the turn of the century, we had way more kids applying to... I'm sorry, the turn of the millennia.

Daryl Tiggle

We had way more kids applying to college than we had before because there were a lot more 18 year olds and lots more percentage wise of people were going to college. That made college more competitive because of that. When we applied to college, and then I show a slide and it's a typewriter, a mail box and person writing, and I asked the students, do you guys recognize me? They said, look, the process of applying to college totally changed. You used to have to get... Say, if you were applying to five colleges, you'd need five pieces of mail. You'd have to write with pen or typewriter, five applications. And if you were really proactive, you'd do them all in the same week. And on Saturday, you'd drop all five in the mail box. But we weren't doing that. You do the one, one week, the one, the next week. And if you were Mr. Tiggle, you did three and then said, I think I'm going to get the one of those three. And the fourth thing is that it didn't get done. So I said, so the application process changed because then the common app became more ubiquitous.

Daryl Tiggle

But you still had to do it once and photocopy it five times and get it to the... So that made it, again, easier. But the really big change, so lots more kids, an easier way to apply with the common app. And then the internet happened everywhere. So never mind walking to the mail box. Those were clicks. That was five clicks that you just heard. That was five applications that just left my hand. Why not apply to five more? Now you've got more kids, easier way to apply. The other thing the internet did, and again, I pick on the Ivy League. Before the internet, if you went to Mars and said Yale, they say, Yeah, I've heard of it. But if you said a Mona, they're like, Huh? But after the internet, if you go to Mars and say Union College, they're like, Hey, yeah, Union College, Connected City New York. It made it possible for people anywhere in the world to research any school in the world. That's what we do with admissions. Just like getting a crisis. Same thing happened with gas.

Andrew Palumbo 

Enjoying the podcast? Like and subscribe to this YouTube video. You can also find us on the web at Inside Admissions podcast. Com, and you can find and engage with us on social media where our handle is Inside Admissions on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Now, back to the pod. I think one of the things that I hear from students and parents starting the process is how overwhelming all that information is. There's also a fear that with all those applications, is it even possible to get into a college anymore? What do you say to students and parents who at the start are overwhelmed by some of this information and by the explosion of applications and the decrease in admit rates?

Daryl Tiggle

Well, I tell them that's something that... And not in a in a terribly good way, I go, That is just a known... That's a reality that we probably aren't going to be able to change during your child's admission cycle. So let's make a strategy to win in this game. T hat's what the College Counseling 102 process is. We talk to them about how college applications are read. We say, Look, given all the selectivity, given all the things you're hearing, there are a couple of thousand colleges. I'm going to play the good college game with you. Fine. A thousand of them are good, but let's slice it in. 500 of them are good. So if we can strategize to find a few within that 500, not that eight, not that 25, we'll look at those. But it's such a small grouping. Let's have a strategy on the front end to help you understand how admissions is done. Without giving the whole course, I say, Look, admissions is either data driven. It's going to be the numbers that you have that will have the highest influence on your outcomes, or it's going to be a holistic read where the entirety of your application is going to be considered and will help you in gaining admissions.

Daryl Tiggle

When we start the process, let's make sure that we're identifying schools where our profile is really competitive. We give our students three categories of schools to pursue. One we call a reach, which everyone's familiar with. That's the school you're reaching with. The other group is called the middle group, which I think oftentimes people say, Yeah, I'm right in. I say, No, the middle group is as it sounds, 50-50 . Your 50-50 middle group. Then I go, Your foundation group, that's where you're most strong. That's where you're a most viable option. But please do not see your foundation list as your consolidation list. In terms of philosophy, I try to tell them, if you're a good student, if you're a good person, the schools that are on your foundation list, they have to be good because they match you completely. That's where you will get in. That's where you will thrive. Those are places that want you really badly. So don't think of them as places that are fallbacks. Think of those as your starting point. T hen we're moving up to the reach and the foundation, I mean, the middle and the reach. Given that data versus holistic read, to get into your middle schools or your reach schools, there will have to be a goodness about you that they identify in your application.

Daryl Tiggle

Where that goodness is also what makes you a really good match for your foundation schools. I tell them you've got to really embrace the profile of the places that match your profile.

Andrew Palumbo 

And then move. I love that. I love that you specifically refer to them as foundation and not safety schools. As I was going through the process, that was the guidance I was given. It almost tainted these schools that you even liked. I'm not the person to follow how I did my college search by any stretch of imagination. But I applied to seven schools, right? The seventh school was a foundational school. The top three are dead to me. Didn't get in, and that's fine. But as I was trying to decide, I was trying to decide between my fourth school and my seventh school after narrowing it down. And it turned out that foundational school for me, Union College, ended up being the best fit for me. And I had tremendous experience, tremendous mentorship. And the reason it was probably number 7, it rained the day I went for my visit, junior year. And so trying to keep an open mind and make sure that every school on your list is one that you want to go to, one that you see the fit for, I think is totally critical. So I love that idea of foundational schools.

Andrew Palumbo 

So Darrell, you see a really interesting thing that I think a lot of parents don't get to see, and that is the, at least before COVID, this were pretty traditional, the traditional high school visit. So colleges come to visit the Friends School. Tell us, what does that look like? What are colleges there to do? Why should students be attending these sessions? How many should they be attending? I think there's constantly a concern about the balance of you don't want to miss too much class time, but you also don't want to miss an opportunity to engage with schools that are either on your list or that could be on your list that you're seeking more information for. So how do you advise students about the high school visits? Tell us a little bit about that.

Daryl Tiggle

Great. I'll give the precursor again that we're a private school that has the luxury of having a college counseling center and the like. Ours might be a little bit different than a bigger school with a bigger school population. But essentially what we do during the fall is every day, September to probably the beginning of November, we have in the neighborhood of 3 to 4 schools will come and visit. E ssentially, it's a half hour info session from the admissions representative from that college who likely will be the person eventually reading our students' application. T hey'll come in and they'll... We have a little center they can come and hand out information, but also give a brief presentation about the school and then field questions from our students. So it's a really good exchange of information opportunity. In so much as this is a... I always want people to understand that as best as we can, and I think almost all schools are good at this, we are really serving people. It's a people business. This is an opportunity for the people in admissions to meet the people in the high schools whose applications they'll be reading.

Daryl Tiggle

I, again, have the luxury of being able to sit down with the admissions person for a little while and say, Hey, what's new at your school? Here are some things that you should know that are new about our curriculum. So it's a good way for us to keep that rapport. So it's really building and maintaining relationships with colleges and enabling our students to... For instance, if schools from California are visiting us, hey, make sure you go to those visits. The California schools are going to be harder for you to come and see. So it really helps students get information from colleges, colleges to spread information about what students need to know. And in so much as colleges and families realize you can't get to every place that you want to visit, it's a good way to have a virtual way to connect with the school. And schools like mine, we work it into the schedule. We talk with our teachers and make sure that it's part of the fabric of the schedule. So we're able to manage it that way where students can't miss exams, can't miss major assessments. We try to make it as available as we.

Andrew Palumbo 

Can tour. Let's get real here. We've both worked at admissions. Can that help a student if they visit with a representative from a school that might be on their list?

Daryl Tiggle

I'm going to say heck yeah. One of the things I say to my students, again, when the Ivy League comes to visit, every kid in your class is going to be at that visit. But when Union College were very successful, Andrew Palumbo and Daryl Tingle went, when they come, if you're interested in going there, it's not an easy place to get into. Admissions there is not easy. But you might be one of two or three people that meet with the Union College rep. That opportunity gives you a real opportunity, not just to get information about the school and ask questions, but make sure that that admissions representative knows who you are. Communicate to them, Hey, your school is really high on my list, or I've already been to your institution. Sometimes when my students come and they're the only student who's at that visit, the college will ask the student and ask me, Hey, would you like to do a little mock interview? M y students will always say, Yes, they can. Typically, my students will say, Sure. It can even serve as a little way to have an extra slice of person.

Andrew Palumbo 

I think that's great. I think one of the things that gets lost in the public misconception or what's portrayed in movies and pop culture is admissions decisions are made in these dark, smoky rooms where it's a mystery as to what's happening. What happens in a real committee, I've seen those interactions year in, year out where someone said, That was the only student to come visit me at friend school. And it was the first student in two years. And I'm so excited because there's such a fit between their curriculum and our curriculum. And this student had a compelling conversation to me about fishing because they love fishing. And it just stuck in my mind. And so that human connection, I think, can actually act as a positive bias for students. I'm not recommending you go visit all 500 schools that come to your high school. But for those that might be on your list or that are on your list, I think there is a value there. I think very often that's something that parents who may not have experienced this through their process or students who are new to it might not know. There is a potential benefit to having that human interaction.

Daryl Tiggle

It demonstrates in the college that you have a keen interest in their institution. You're making time.

Andrew Palumbo 

Similarly, as those college admissions reps are traveling the country, as you described, they're also going to college fairs. T here might be a small college fair in a public high school near you, or there might be a large one at a convention center nearby. D escribe what a college fair is like and how do you recommend families approach that traditional college fair? Is there preparation they should do beforehand? You talked a little bit about winning in this process. What's a win? When you go to a college fair, how is that a successful event? How do you measure that? Got you.

Daryl Tiggle

All right. This is part nostalgia, part fantasy. I'm going to beck and back to pre COVID days and what will be like post COVID. College fairs are a lots of people in one place type of event. The way we used to do it may change, but it's like any other type of event where you go and you're gathering information. High schools might have college fairs where they do it in their criteria. It's for their school community. Or NACAC, which is the National Association for College college admissions counseling. They do and have done fairs around the country forever. I'll describe theirs. T hat's where most colleges make sure that they have a presence. T ypically, if you're in a city or a town that has a convention center, the NACAC College Fair is going to take place in your city's convention center. W hat happens is just like the college reps who are visiting schools during the day, they're likely the people who are staffing those college fairs at night, and they'll have very similar information that they're bringing to the schools. They'll have their business card, some handouts, some information about programs, and they can't do 20 minute mini information sessions, but they can do 20 second information sessions because families are coming in large number to gather information.

Daryl Tiggle

Back in the day, we used to have inquiry cards where they put their name and address and information to be sent. Now it's come super high tech where you'll often be scanned when you get to that table and that college will add you to their mailing list. It's an opportunity for you again to say, Hey, so nice to see you again. I met you at my school earlier today, or I'm so interested in Pemona College, but my parents and I cannot get to California. I just wanted to come and get as much information as I can, see if they have any programs that might send students out that way. It's a way to do speed dating with as many colleges as you can get to. Again, post COVID, I hope it starts.

Andrew Palumbo 

Happening again. You mentioned.

Daryl Tiggle

Winning there is making sure that parents go to tables by themselves and students go to tables by themselves. So you can divide and conquer. But also I think it gives students an opportunity to also go and really make an earnest contact, learn how to introduce and present themselves and do it in a low stakes but high return.

Andrew Palumbo 

Type way. I think it's an interesting point you make about Pemona, being on the East Coast and seeing a college from the West Coast. Now, is that something colleges may use when they're considering applications?

Daryl Tiggle

I certainly hope so because I love sending my students out there. Thank God, we just received very good news from a Pomona College. But I think in terms of how colleges... One of the things I really liked about college admissions when I worked at school is really of different levels of selectivity. But at each institution, we were trying to construct an intentional community. That community, we really wanted to have a diversity that was represented in many different ways. Geographic diversity, where people come from, was something that was always important to us. There's different schools that I worked at and places like Pemona on the West Coast. It's super hard to get into, but I hope and trust that part of their intentional community calculation is, Hey, we want some students from Baltimore, Maryland. They're going to bring a different flavor to our school. Or an urban school. I had a conversation with a college Dean from a highly selective school in New York City, and they said one of the things that they really do, and it's not just for playing the game, it's really for having that diversity. They really want a student from every state in the country.

Daryl Tiggle

Whenever they describe, and I'm just going to pick on and I'm going to preface it with my love for the whole country. But whenever they talk about the student they get from North Dakota or Idaho or Wyoming, the texture or the life that they've lived is so different from most of the students who they're seeing in the applicant pool that that diversity is super important.

Andrew Palumbo 

It's really good. Switching gears to a topic that doesn't get a lot of mind share in this process, but is still a required part of most college applications, and that's the teacher recommendation. As students are preparing to apply, I think there's a lot of conversations about how to construct your list. A lot of conversations about how to show demonstrated interest, if that's something that a college is interested in. But very often it's one of those last minute things, I need to ask a teacher or two teachers to provide a recommendation. How do you advise students to pick those teachers? What's important? You've been on the college side of the desk. What are the college admissions professionals looking for in those recommendations? The recommendations from you as a college counselor and their teachers. How can that help students determine who to ask for those recommendations?

Daryl Tiggle

All right. Back me up to make sure I hit each point, but I'm going to try to get to them because this is important. I think one of the things that we have in our program to make sure that the teacher recommendation piece does not fall by the wayside is we make sure that our students have their teacher recommendation writers identified and confirmed by the time we break for the summer. We ask them in maybe April or May to make sure to reach out to teachers so that they can secure their support as recommendation writers. It gives the teachers lots and lots of time to think about it. If they're so inspired, they might even do them over the summer. But what we want to do is make sure that since that's something that we know is part of the application process that's going to have to be in there, we're getting that message out to them more strongly than take your SAT right now. It's a required part of the class that we teach for juniors around college seminar that the teacher recommendations have to be secured. We give in broad strokes, if you can, in a perfect world, get a teacher who taught you as a junior, get one humanities, social science type teacher, get one math science type teacher.

Daryl Tiggle

I've amended that counsel over the years and said, Look, ultimate goal, get a teacher who knows you best and you can write most eloquently about you. I think if you're strategizing, if you have a teacher who taught you as a freshman and sophomore or sophomore who's also teaching you later in your high school career, that is the perfect teacher, regardless of subject, because they can talk about your growth. Then to the extent that you can and you should provide your teacher with information about you that you don't think they know. You know they know what your grades are like and what you show them in the classroom. But if there's other things that you think might help them support you in their letter writing, give that to them. We have something called a drag sheet that our... Because our teachers used to be pretty strict about it. Some teachers would have... They'd have to have an interview session with the kid before they would confirm it. They would say, Hey, teach, teachers, let us get a little brag sheet formed for you where we're giving you the broad strokes of the students. T hat should help you with getting some father to write.

Daryl Tiggle

W e really focused in on that because, again, on the getting into the good schools, and if you're thinking about the schools where you're 50-50 or you're reaching, I tell them, if you get into a reach school, and this is no offense, it's not because of your academic prowess. But by definition, it is not. It's because of those other things. So if you want to reach, you want to make sure your other things are strong and teacher is one of those.

Andrew Palumbo 

Other things. I have a piece of advice there for schools that don't have this type of excellent college admissions curriculum. One is it's never too early to start talking with teachers about recommendations. Obviously, the most popular teachers, those ones that have an impact on so many students are probably going to be the most popular ask among your classmates. And so junior year, not too early to talk to teachers. And this idea of a brag sheet, I think sometimes it's difficult. So many students are humble. Parents, this is for you. Make sure they brag. Have a word document, their accomplishments, the things that teachers may not know about them. I think that's great advice because having sat down to write a lot of these recommendations, there's only so much you know, and there's only so much you can recall. Those popular teachers may have 15 minutes to write that letter and then move on to the next one. The easier you can make it for the teachers, the more of that 15 minutes, that half hour they're going to allocate to actually writing. I think that's great that you guys do that with the drag sheet, but definitely good advice for everyone, whether or not your school provides something like that.

Daryl Tiggle

This is a plug for drag sheet. We also have our students do a resume, and that often will help teachers with their... When you're a.

Andrew Palumbo 

College admissions officer or you're in a committee and you're reviewing a student's case, what are the admissions professionals looking at in those recommendations? What are they trying to draw out?

Daryl Tiggle

I think the word, and this will sound like an academic term, I think it's overall scholarship. Because the grade, the number grade, that is quick and easy to see and to ascertain. You know what an A or B is. But when they talk about the student's approach to scholarship, that's what really would impress me. One of the things I tell students is that regardless of if you're an introvert or extrovert, in the classroom, you want to make sure that your academic personality is never undersold. I'd like to see how students would fuel the conversation, the intellectual discourse in the classroom. So students who had a voice, that would come through in recommendations. Students who were resilient and were able to... And I tell my students, look, don't take your foot off the pedal so that you can show your acceleration later. But students who show a powerful ascension in their academic work, whether they have been A students, who had continued to be A students and then let their brilliance shine in the classroom that made their peers better students, or students who started off as B minus students and then became B plus students and then became A minus students.

Daryl Tiggle

They did that because they became more mature, and I saw them fooling around less in the classroom and sitting in the front of the class and offering up their ideas. So students whose growth is described in the recommendation, more than a chronicle of the grades that we're looking at that we see very easily. And when I tell my students, I go, Look, for my recommendation as a college counselor, I don't get to teach you. I don't get to see you every day in the classroom. I'm really more of an agent. My recommendation for you, you should want it to sound like it's coming from your favorite uncle. And that's because I know stuff about your person. So that's the thing that's different about the counselor recommendation is it's more of a personal recommendation than one of scholarship.

Andrew Palumbo 

So I think this is something parents struggle with a lot. You want to provide your child with all the opportunities, all the support they could possibly need. But you also know that after college is the real world. And so you're going through this developmental stage that's critical to your child's success. What should a parent's role be in the process, in supporting their student effectively, but also letting up enough to let the student guide the process? How do you find that balance as a parent?

Daryl Tiggle

One of the things we try to help our parents. Our senior parent night as we're launching into the process, we actually have a diagram that says, look, these are the things college counseling is taking care of, these are the things the student needs to take care of, and these are the things that parents should be on top of. I think with parents, I think having an involvement in the process where they at the front end, are trying to get an understanding of what is a good match for their children. I tell parents all the time, Look, you've had, at the time they get to me, 15 years to observe them. Even if they've gone into more of that teenage shell as they became 13, 14 year olds. You really do know who they are. A gain, I'll pick on the Ivy League. In so much as say, Look, I want my kid to go to an Ivy League college. I'm like, Well, look, Columbia is in New York City and Dartmouth is in AN over New Hampshire. They couldn't be no more different. Think less about the names of schools and what is going to be a good fit for your child.

Daryl Tiggle

I'm not kidding, just like that gas price idea I'd given earlier, literally, you've taken your child from birth and fit them into things. You put their bodies into things. I'm not kidding. That is what you're trying to do with college. R eally think about who your child is. You know who they are and think about fit. And what they need to do, drive them to college campuses, make sure they can go and visit places. Have a frank conversation about finances at some point so you can say, Look, we got so much money. Don't worry about it. Look wherever you want to. Or, Hey, these are our limitations in how we can support you financially. We still want you to go anywhere you want, but we're going to have to go and find more money. Or, These are our limitations financially. We'd like to stay within these so that we can support you later in life as well. Have that conversation early. But really, think about the fit. The fit thing, and that you've always focused until they started addressing themselves. When is that? 10, 11. You've for a long, long time paid like, oh, like, surg specific attention to how things fit them.

Daryl Tiggle

That's what the college process should be as well. Not name, fit.

Andrew Palumbo 

That's great. So as we wrap up here, I try to end each conversation seeking a piece of advice for students who are just starting out this process. Then after that, what's one good piece of advice you would give to parents?

Daryl Tiggle

For students, all right. For students, I'm going to give them two pieces. It's going to go back to the theme I've always been using the whole time. As long as you have a good idea... I'm sorry, some idea of who you are and what's a good fit for you, you cannot lose in this process. You can't lose that good school list. And someone just just give them my email, I'll send it to you. It's about a thousand schools. You cannot miss. So on the finding a good school piece, stop losing sleep over that and in fit. And I think this touches most children. And it's a simple thing. And it's something that I literally have on PowerPoint. Use the metaphor, don't worry about the label on the jeans. Think about how well that pair of jeans fits you and how it looks on you. If you can translate that to college, this should be a real... There's tons and tons and tons of jeans out there. Find the ones that fit you best, just like you always do. Just like you're going to do later on this week. Nice.

Andrew Palumbo 

How about for parents?

Daryl Tiggle

For parents. Also the same piece of information. Your child cannot... I've got lots. They cannot lose. The number of good schools out there abounds. What's my last piece of information out there for them? Look, and this is super simple. Keep loving your child the same way you did as they were going through other important times in their life. The same way they were starting school as kindergartners, support them that way. The same way you were excited about their Sweet 16 or Bop MISFA. Be equally excited about this because it's going to be even better and it's going to last longer. So keep loving them and be excited about it.

Andrew Palumbo 

Excellent. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation with Uncle Tiggle, Daryl Tiggle from the Friends School of Baltimore. Thank you so much for being on the podcast, Daryl.

Daryl Tiggle

I'd love it. And look, my niece, Kaylee, will take offense. Only she's allowed to call me Uncle Tiggle. She has put that law down in the playground before.

Andrew Palumbo 

Point taken, Daryl. Point taken. Thanks a lot.

Daryl Tiggle

All right.

Darryl Tiggle - Searching for Colleges, Tours, & More

Andrew Palumbo 

Welcome to Inside Admissions, the podcast that gives you a behind the scenes look at the college admission process with the experts in and around college admission. Welcome to the Inside Admissions podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Palumbo , and I am really excited to have my friend Daryl Tiggle on the podcast today. Welcome, Daryl.

Daryl Tiggle

Thank you, Andrew. So nice to be with you all and really excited to connect with the audience.

Andrew Palumbo 

Daryl, tell us a little bit about yourself, where you work, your role, and your background in higher ed and school counseling.

Daryl Tiggle

Sure. You gavel me down when it gets too long. I'm presently director of College Counseling at Friend School of Baltimore. I'm going into my 12th year of director at this role. P rior to working on the secondary school side, I worked on the other side of college admissions, doing admissions at three different institutions. I worked at Union College, which is my Alma Mater back in the 90s. T hen in 2001, I moved to Boston and I became director of La Salle College, which at the time, making the transition from all women's two year institution to a four year coed institution. A fter my time at La Salle, I moved on to Tufts University, where I worked as a senior associate director, managing lots of different profiles. But one of my main areas of responsibility was diversity recruitment. After a long stint on the admission side, I moved to the other side of the desk, and I've been doing this good work most recently.

Andrew Palumbo 

That's great. Daryl, what was it that made you decide to switch sides of the desk?

Daryl Tiggle

Well, I think the two things that should have... Or the things that I think about when I moved to this side of the desk is that I came from a pretty humble college preparatory background, so I didn't have a lot of college counseling as I was making my own college journey. T hen when I arrived college, I saw that so many people had this experience with a counselor that was guiding them through this process. I was an athlete. I was like, Wow, that's almost like a coach.

Andrew Palumbo 

It sounds like.

Daryl Tiggle

You're totally making sure that you guys were going to win at this college game. I was intrigued by that. Then a couple of years after I graduated from college, I was fortunate to work in college admissions. Then one of the things that you see in college admissions is a real landscape of what the I don't know if it's what the world looks like, but it's what the United States looks like. We travel all over the country, literally every corner of the country, and we visit schools. And schools are where people live. You could see in a very obvious way, even in a day, the difference in how college counseling was being distributed to children based on what school they went to, maybe private versus public, or what socio economic environment they were in. Rich versus medium versus poor. The counseling in the schools, if they were public schools, might even correlate to that. I was always curious about the council students were getting, because again, thinking like an athlete, the college counselor coaches them through the process. I'm like, This college coaching is different at different places. When I worked at Tufts, I worked in admissions for a long time.

Daryl Tiggle

One of the things I noticed is that when I worked at Tufts, after a few years, I started being quartered to come and work in college counseling. T hat's when I was, I think, first thinking about moving to this side of the desk. I understood it in a way that it was mostly, or almost not mostly, exclusively private schools that were reaching out to see if I'd be interested in being their director of college counseling, where comparatively, I was a public school product, and I did really indeed like the work. But one of the things I could not do was college counseling at a public school because I didn't have a counseling degree, like a master's degree. I said, Look, if I'm going to do this stuff, I'm probably going to have to start or at least put my foot on the door in the private school arena. T hat's what I've been doing for the last several years. P eople often ask, Hey, you and I understand why that move might be made, but people that are maybe outside the college admissions bubble often ask, Why do you... That's an interesting move. Why would you go from college admissions to college counseling?

Daryl Tiggle

The way that I help people understand it, I go, If you follow me on this reasoning, law firms, if the law firm does lots of different types of law, if they have a fact, if they have a tax division, they definitely want to go and find a lawyer that used to work at the IRS.

Andrew Palumbo 

I get it.

Daryl Tiggle

I totally get it. They're like, Oh, perfect. I get it.

Andrew Palumbo 

Well, that's a reason why I think you're a great guest for the podcast here because you do have that background of both sides. But one of my favorite parts about this podcast has been just hearing my friends and colleagues different paths to their own college. As a fellow Union guy, I'm curious, what was your story, Daryl? How did you go through the search process? What was important to you and what did that look like?

Daryl Tiggle

It will be interesting, but it is not a search. I'm going to suggest that your listeners follow. That tends to be what.

Andrew Palumbo 

Every guest says, actually.

Daryl Tiggle

I do. I say this to put it into perspective. I'm often asked to come and give presentations about college admissions and how to navigate the process. I'm pretty well experienced in it and knowledgeable, but I'll try to make sure that my audience understands where I'm coming from when I talk about my own journey. I say, Look, when I was 17 and beginning to pursue college, I knew the colleges that everyone knew, the ones that are in your neighborhood, right? I knew what the Ivy League was. I was familiar with Noter Dane, s uper unsophisticated. But I say this, and it sounds funny, but it's not really funny. I didn't know the difference between martial arts and liberal arts. Liberal arts, I didn't know. I had no idea what people were talking about, and I was a pretty bright kid. The other thing that I say that was super tragic, because I went to an excellent college. I went to Union College, and I'll tell you how I got there. But if you would have asked me at 17, and I went to high school right outside of Springfield, Massachusetts, Western Massachusetts, if you would have asked me to bring you to Amherst College when I was 17, I would have taken you to the University of Massachusetts at Amherst.

Daryl Tiggle

I would have not taken you to that super well known, elite liberal arts college. I didn't know it existed and I could ride my bike. That's how unsophisticated I was. Please don't use that in understanding the rest of my insight because I know a lot now. Again, that chasm in college counseling between private school, public school, rich school, poor school. I went to a public, not rich school. College counselor wasn't even a word. Guidance counselor was a reality. I was fortunate and again, you'll have to forgive my arrogance I was fortunate to be a really good football player. So I thought, and so a lot of people thought, and so I thought I was going to go to one of those schools that I had heard of before.

Andrew Palumbo 

Noter.

Daryl Tiggle

Dame, right? Yeah. Noter Dame or the like. Or at least, you mask. That was Division 1 football, and I was good. But I was fortunate and not fortunate to get hurt as a senior in high school. So that college football scholarship journey that I thought I was going to go on, that was no longer a journey. We didn't really have a program for college counseling at my school. I was super blessed that I was still good enough that not Notor Day wanted me anymore, but these small liberal arts colleges that I never heard of before started knocking on my door. T hat's how I was introduced to Union College and the existence of places like Union College.

Andrew Palumbo 

That's great. Thanks for sharing that, Daryl. No problem. Sometimes after hearing folks' stories, I sometimes think those of us who didn't know what we were doing the first time around are just doomed to repeat it year after year now as we work with students and gain that knowledge little by little. But you've got a lot of knowledge, Daryl. You were telling me before this conversation that you've built up something you call Admissions 101 at the Front School. Talk to me about that. Tell our listeners a little bit more about your Admissions 101 and how you recommend students and families begin this process.

Daryl Tiggle

Got you. T he way it works at my school and maybe at many schools that have a committed college counseling role. Truth be told, we're not really encountering the students until they're juniors. We're not working in earnest with them until they're juniors. But the things that will get them into college, obviously, they need to be doing before junior year. When I first came into the role, I was focusing on getting our juniors prepared, our seniors' applications out the door, and really perfecting that work. I was getting all questions from 10th grade and ninth grade and even eighth grade parents about college counseling. What are you talking about? I don't get to talk to you guys till later. But it was obvious to me that it was information they were hungry for, that indeed, the stuff they needed to do to get into college, they needed to know sooner than later. In retrospect, the thing that was really helpful, and it's really been a blessing to the way in which we work with our community, in the absence of them getting information, they might find their own information or draw their own conclusions. I said, Hey, let's get together and do a program for them.

Daryl Tiggle

A gain, truth be told, the first time I scheduled it, I said, Let's do these during the summer. The people that are really interested, if they're interested, they'll come out during the summer. We've got tons of time to do it. I scheduled one and set up in the library, had nothing prepared, just figured I'd come and answer some questions. And 40 parents showed up. Oh, my goodness. What are you people doing? What do you guys want to know? It's fourth of July week. We had a really robust conversation, but I realized that there was a thirst for this information and that we could provide some really good insight that would help our students and families. I said, Let's put together a class like we do with our students because what we do with our students is we try to... One of the things people always asked me because they knew I worked in admissions at a highly selective place, they come to me all the time and say, Hey, Mr. Tabor, do you think I can get into such and such a place? I said, Again, I know a lot, but what I think is not necessarily what you should rest your fate on.

Daryl Tiggle

Let's go and start looking at data. I said, Let's teach our students how admissions works as opposed to guessing how competitive they might be in a place. I said, Let's teach them how admissions works. We broke it down into two classes that we teach during the summer, and then we asked anywhere from ninth grade to eighth grade parents can come. We call one College Counseling 101. We call the second group College Counseling 102. In the first segment, we try to help them understand the landscape of college admissions. One of the things I tell my students and parents, I go, Look, you're super privileged to go here. We've got great college counseling. For anyone who's nervous about this whole college admissions experience, I can right now, in very good confidence, guarantee you your child is going to have lots of college options at the end of this process. Then I wait, 1,001, and they go, doesn't that make you all feel great? No one says, yeah, we need to pay for that guarantee.

Andrew Palumbo 

They all are very disrupted applause. Yeah.

Daryl Tiggle

Hey, why isn't anyone excited? Then someone's brave enough to say, Hey, Mr. Tigger, we need you to guarantee that we'll get into a good school. I go, Perfect. T hen I start helping them examine what is the criteria that makes a school good. W e talk about graduation rate, faculty to student ratio, financial resources, what have you. W e've got a list of about 20 things. I say, Look, and we're all friends here. We're the friend school of Baltimore. T ell me if this second list probably is more about what you think helped determine a good school. T hen it says reputation. I'm not a fan of this show, but it has a picture of the Friends cast. What Friends think about the school. I go, Look, in so much that you're arresting your understanding of what a goodness of school is in that second page, you're missing the ball. You want to arrest your understanding of what goodness of school is in that list of 15 to 20 to 100 things that we can help you, so to determine the goodness of school. I help them understand that. Then this is insight I've just been giving away.

Daryl Tiggle

I should be helping give them insight. I tell them about the shift in admissions, and many of the parents are now my age, where I'm asking for grace prior to. I pick on the Ivy League a lot because I know everyone knows those school's names. They may not know you're in college or Vassar College or some of the other really good, quote unquote good colleges whose names aren't as big. I pick on the Ivies because I know they know their names and that's the one they often bring up. T hey'll say, Well, look, Mr. Tickle, when I was going to college, I was a good student. I got in. My uncle went, my cousin went. I said, Look, how much did gas cost when that was happening? They're like, Oh, you devil. Then I say, Look, these are the changes that changed admissions completely, and they won't change them back, but it's still 0 to 100. It's still A, B, C, D, E, F. Nothing has changed about admissions other than the landscape, which is super changed. At the turn of the century, we had way more kids applying to... I'm sorry, the turn of the millennia.

Daryl Tiggle

We had way more kids applying to college than we had before because there were a lot more 18 year olds and lots more percentage wise of people were going to college. That made college more competitive because of that. When we applied to college, and then I show a slide and it's a typewriter, a mail box and person writing, and I asked the students, do you guys recognize me? They said, look, the process of applying to college totally changed. You used to have to get... Say, if you were applying to five colleges, you'd need five pieces of mail. You'd have to write with pen or typewriter, five applications. And if you were really proactive, you'd do them all in the same week. And on Saturday, you'd drop all five in the mail box. But we weren't doing that. You do the one, one week, the one, the next week. And if you were Mr. Tiggle, you did three and then said, I think I'm going to get the one of those three. And the fourth thing is that it didn't get done. So I said, so the application process changed because then the common app became more ubiquitous.

Daryl Tiggle

But you still had to do it once and photocopy it five times and get it to the... So that made it, again, easier. But the really big change, so lots more kids, an easier way to apply with the common app. And then the internet happened everywhere. So never mind walking to the mail box. Those were clicks. That was five clicks that you just heard. That was five applications that just left my hand. Why not apply to five more? Now you've got more kids, easier way to apply. The other thing the internet did, and again, I pick on the Ivy League. Before the internet, if you went to Mars and said Yale, they say, Yeah, I've heard of it. But if you said a Mona, they're like, Huh? But after the internet, if you go to Mars and say Union College, they're like, Hey, yeah, Union College, Connected City New York. It made it possible for people anywhere in the world to research any school in the world. That's what we do with admissions. Just like getting a crisis. Same thing happened with gas.

Andrew Palumbo 

Enjoying the podcast? Like and subscribe to this YouTube video. You can also find us on the web at Inside Admissions podcast. Com, and you can find and engage with us on social media where our handle is Inside Admissions on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Now, back to the pod. I think one of the things that I hear from students and parents starting the process is how overwhelming all that information is. There's also a fear that with all those applications, is it even possible to get into a college anymore? What do you say to students and parents who at the start are overwhelmed by some of this information and by the explosion of applications and the decrease in admit rates?

Daryl Tiggle

Well, I tell them that's something that... And not in a in a terribly good way, I go, That is just a known... That's a reality that we probably aren't going to be able to change during your child's admission cycle. So let's make a strategy to win in this game. T hat's what the College Counseling 102 process is. We talk to them about how college applications are read. We say, Look, given all the selectivity, given all the things you're hearing, there are a couple of thousand colleges. I'm going to play the good college game with you. Fine. A thousand of them are good, but let's slice it in. 500 of them are good. So if we can strategize to find a few within that 500, not that eight, not that 25, we'll look at those. But it's such a small grouping. Let's have a strategy on the front end to help you understand how admissions is done. Without giving the whole course, I say, Look, admissions is either data driven. It's going to be the numbers that you have that will have the highest influence on your outcomes, or it's going to be a holistic read where the entirety of your application is going to be considered and will help you in gaining admissions.

Daryl Tiggle

When we start the process, let's make sure that we're identifying schools where our profile is really competitive. We give our students three categories of schools to pursue. One we call a reach, which everyone's familiar with. That's the school you're reaching with. The other group is called the middle group, which I think oftentimes people say, Yeah, I'm right in. I say, No, the middle group is as it sounds, 50-50 . Your 50-50 middle group. Then I go, Your foundation group, that's where you're most strong. That's where you're a most viable option. But please do not see your foundation list as your consolidation list. In terms of philosophy, I try to tell them, if you're a good student, if you're a good person, the schools that are on your foundation list, they have to be good because they match you completely. That's where you will get in. That's where you will thrive. Those are places that want you really badly. So don't think of them as places that are fallbacks. Think of those as your starting point. T hen we're moving up to the reach and the foundation, I mean, the middle and the reach. Given that data versus holistic read, to get into your middle schools or your reach schools, there will have to be a goodness about you that they identify in your application.

Daryl Tiggle

Where that goodness is also what makes you a really good match for your foundation schools. I tell them you've got to really embrace the profile of the places that match your profile.

Andrew Palumbo 

And then move. I love that. I love that you specifically refer to them as foundation and not safety schools. As I was going through the process, that was the guidance I was given. It almost tainted these schools that you even liked. I'm not the person to follow how I did my college search by any stretch of imagination. But I applied to seven schools, right? The seventh school was a foundational school. The top three are dead to me. Didn't get in, and that's fine. But as I was trying to decide, I was trying to decide between my fourth school and my seventh school after narrowing it down. And it turned out that foundational school for me, Union College, ended up being the best fit for me. And I had tremendous experience, tremendous mentorship. And the reason it was probably number 7, it rained the day I went for my visit, junior year. And so trying to keep an open mind and make sure that every school on your list is one that you want to go to, one that you see the fit for, I think is totally critical. So I love that idea of foundational schools.

Andrew Palumbo 

So Darrell, you see a really interesting thing that I think a lot of parents don't get to see, and that is the, at least before COVID, this were pretty traditional, the traditional high school visit. So colleges come to visit the Friends School. Tell us, what does that look like? What are colleges there to do? Why should students be attending these sessions? How many should they be attending? I think there's constantly a concern about the balance of you don't want to miss too much class time, but you also don't want to miss an opportunity to engage with schools that are either on your list or that could be on your list that you're seeking more information for. So how do you advise students about the high school visits? Tell us a little bit about that.

Daryl Tiggle

Great. I'll give the precursor again that we're a private school that has the luxury of having a college counseling center and the like. Ours might be a little bit different than a bigger school with a bigger school population. But essentially what we do during the fall is every day, September to probably the beginning of November, we have in the neighborhood of 3 to 4 schools will come and visit. E ssentially, it's a half hour info session from the admissions representative from that college who likely will be the person eventually reading our students' application. T hey'll come in and they'll... We have a little center they can come and hand out information, but also give a brief presentation about the school and then field questions from our students. So it's a really good exchange of information opportunity. In so much as this is a... I always want people to understand that as best as we can, and I think almost all schools are good at this, we are really serving people. It's a people business. This is an opportunity for the people in admissions to meet the people in the high schools whose applications they'll be reading.

Daryl Tiggle

I, again, have the luxury of being able to sit down with the admissions person for a little while and say, Hey, what's new at your school? Here are some things that you should know that are new about our curriculum. So it's a good way for us to keep that rapport. So it's really building and maintaining relationships with colleges and enabling our students to... For instance, if schools from California are visiting us, hey, make sure you go to those visits. The California schools are going to be harder for you to come and see. So it really helps students get information from colleges, colleges to spread information about what students need to know. And in so much as colleges and families realize you can't get to every place that you want to visit, it's a good way to have a virtual way to connect with the school. And schools like mine, we work it into the schedule. We talk with our teachers and make sure that it's part of the fabric of the schedule. So we're able to manage it that way where students can't miss exams, can't miss major assessments. We try to make it as available as we.

Andrew Palumbo 

Can tour. Let's get real here. We've both worked at admissions. Can that help a student if they visit with a representative from a school that might be on their list?

Daryl Tiggle

I'm going to say heck yeah. One of the things I say to my students, again, when the Ivy League comes to visit, every kid in your class is going to be at that visit. But when Union College were very successful, Andrew Palumbo and Daryl Tingle went, when they come, if you're interested in going there, it's not an easy place to get into. Admissions there is not easy. But you might be one of two or three people that meet with the Union College rep. That opportunity gives you a real opportunity, not just to get information about the school and ask questions, but make sure that that admissions representative knows who you are. Communicate to them, Hey, your school is really high on my list, or I've already been to your institution. Sometimes when my students come and they're the only student who's at that visit, the college will ask the student and ask me, Hey, would you like to do a little mock interview? M y students will always say, Yes, they can. Typically, my students will say, Sure. It can even serve as a little way to have an extra slice of person.

Andrew Palumbo 

I think that's great. I think one of the things that gets lost in the public misconception or what's portrayed in movies and pop culture is admissions decisions are made in these dark, smoky rooms where it's a mystery as to what's happening. What happens in a real committee, I've seen those interactions year in, year out where someone said, That was the only student to come visit me at friend school. And it was the first student in two years. And I'm so excited because there's such a fit between their curriculum and our curriculum. And this student had a compelling conversation to me about fishing because they love fishing. And it just stuck in my mind. And so that human connection, I think, can actually act as a positive bias for students. I'm not recommending you go visit all 500 schools that come to your high school. But for those that might be on your list or that are on your list, I think there is a value there. I think very often that's something that parents who may not have experienced this through their process or students who are new to it might not know. There is a potential benefit to having that human interaction.

Daryl Tiggle

It demonstrates in the college that you have a keen interest in their institution. You're making time.

Andrew Palumbo 

Similarly, as those college admissions reps are traveling the country, as you described, they're also going to college fairs. T here might be a small college fair in a public high school near you, or there might be a large one at a convention center nearby. D escribe what a college fair is like and how do you recommend families approach that traditional college fair? Is there preparation they should do beforehand? You talked a little bit about winning in this process. What's a win? When you go to a college fair, how is that a successful event? How do you measure that? Got you.

Daryl Tiggle

All right. This is part nostalgia, part fantasy. I'm going to beck and back to pre COVID days and what will be like post COVID. College fairs are a lots of people in one place type of event. The way we used to do it may change, but it's like any other type of event where you go and you're gathering information. High schools might have college fairs where they do it in their criteria. It's for their school community. Or NACAC, which is the National Association for College college admissions counseling. They do and have done fairs around the country forever. I'll describe theirs. T hat's where most colleges make sure that they have a presence. T ypically, if you're in a city or a town that has a convention center, the NACAC College Fair is going to take place in your city's convention center. W hat happens is just like the college reps who are visiting schools during the day, they're likely the people who are staffing those college fairs at night, and they'll have very similar information that they're bringing to the schools. They'll have their business card, some handouts, some information about programs, and they can't do 20 minute mini information sessions, but they can do 20 second information sessions because families are coming in large number to gather information.

Daryl Tiggle

Back in the day, we used to have inquiry cards where they put their name and address and information to be sent. Now it's come super high tech where you'll often be scanned when you get to that table and that college will add you to their mailing list. It's an opportunity for you again to say, Hey, so nice to see you again. I met you at my school earlier today, or I'm so interested in Pemona College, but my parents and I cannot get to California. I just wanted to come and get as much information as I can, see if they have any programs that might send students out that way. It's a way to do speed dating with as many colleges as you can get to. Again, post COVID, I hope it starts.

Andrew Palumbo 

Happening again. You mentioned.

Daryl Tiggle

Winning there is making sure that parents go to tables by themselves and students go to tables by themselves. So you can divide and conquer. But also I think it gives students an opportunity to also go and really make an earnest contact, learn how to introduce and present themselves and do it in a low stakes but high return.

Andrew Palumbo 

Type way. I think it's an interesting point you make about Pemona, being on the East Coast and seeing a college from the West Coast. Now, is that something colleges may use when they're considering applications?

Daryl Tiggle

I certainly hope so because I love sending my students out there. Thank God, we just received very good news from a Pomona College. But I think in terms of how colleges... One of the things I really liked about college admissions when I worked at school is really of different levels of selectivity. But at each institution, we were trying to construct an intentional community. That community, we really wanted to have a diversity that was represented in many different ways. Geographic diversity, where people come from, was something that was always important to us. There's different schools that I worked at and places like Pemona on the West Coast. It's super hard to get into, but I hope and trust that part of their intentional community calculation is, Hey, we want some students from Baltimore, Maryland. They're going to bring a different flavor to our school. Or an urban school. I had a conversation with a college Dean from a highly selective school in New York City, and they said one of the things that they really do, and it's not just for playing the game, it's really for having that diversity. They really want a student from every state in the country.

Daryl Tiggle

Whenever they describe, and I'm just going to pick on and I'm going to preface it with my love for the whole country. But whenever they talk about the student they get from North Dakota or Idaho or Wyoming, the texture or the life that they've lived is so different from most of the students who they're seeing in the applicant pool that that diversity is super important.

Andrew Palumbo 

It's really good. Switching gears to a topic that doesn't get a lot of mind share in this process, but is still a required part of most college applications, and that's the teacher recommendation. As students are preparing to apply, I think there's a lot of conversations about how to construct your list. A lot of conversations about how to show demonstrated interest, if that's something that a college is interested in. But very often it's one of those last minute things, I need to ask a teacher or two teachers to provide a recommendation. How do you advise students to pick those teachers? What's important? You've been on the college side of the desk. What are the college admissions professionals looking for in those recommendations? The recommendations from you as a college counselor and their teachers. How can that help students determine who to ask for those recommendations?

Daryl Tiggle

All right. Back me up to make sure I hit each point, but I'm going to try to get to them because this is important. I think one of the things that we have in our program to make sure that the teacher recommendation piece does not fall by the wayside is we make sure that our students have their teacher recommendation writers identified and confirmed by the time we break for the summer. We ask them in maybe April or May to make sure to reach out to teachers so that they can secure their support as recommendation writers. It gives the teachers lots and lots of time to think about it. If they're so inspired, they might even do them over the summer. But what we want to do is make sure that since that's something that we know is part of the application process that's going to have to be in there, we're getting that message out to them more strongly than take your SAT right now. It's a required part of the class that we teach for juniors around college seminar that the teacher recommendations have to be secured. We give in broad strokes, if you can, in a perfect world, get a teacher who taught you as a junior, get one humanities, social science type teacher, get one math science type teacher.

Daryl Tiggle

I've amended that counsel over the years and said, Look, ultimate goal, get a teacher who knows you best and you can write most eloquently about you. I think if you're strategizing, if you have a teacher who taught you as a freshman and sophomore or sophomore who's also teaching you later in your high school career, that is the perfect teacher, regardless of subject, because they can talk about your growth. Then to the extent that you can and you should provide your teacher with information about you that you don't think they know. You know they know what your grades are like and what you show them in the classroom. But if there's other things that you think might help them support you in their letter writing, give that to them. We have something called a drag sheet that our... Because our teachers used to be pretty strict about it. Some teachers would have... They'd have to have an interview session with the kid before they would confirm it. They would say, Hey, teach, teachers, let us get a little brag sheet formed for you where we're giving you the broad strokes of the students. T hat should help you with getting some father to write.

Daryl Tiggle

W e really focused in on that because, again, on the getting into the good schools, and if you're thinking about the schools where you're 50-50 or you're reaching, I tell them, if you get into a reach school, and this is no offense, it's not because of your academic prowess. But by definition, it is not. It's because of those other things. So if you want to reach, you want to make sure your other things are strong and teacher is one of those.

Andrew Palumbo 

Other things. I have a piece of advice there for schools that don't have this type of excellent college admissions curriculum. One is it's never too early to start talking with teachers about recommendations. Obviously, the most popular teachers, those ones that have an impact on so many students are probably going to be the most popular ask among your classmates. And so junior year, not too early to talk to teachers. And this idea of a brag sheet, I think sometimes it's difficult. So many students are humble. Parents, this is for you. Make sure they brag. Have a word document, their accomplishments, the things that teachers may not know about them. I think that's great advice because having sat down to write a lot of these recommendations, there's only so much you know, and there's only so much you can recall. Those popular teachers may have 15 minutes to write that letter and then move on to the next one. The easier you can make it for the teachers, the more of that 15 minutes, that half hour they're going to allocate to actually writing. I think that's great that you guys do that with the drag sheet, but definitely good advice for everyone, whether or not your school provides something like that.

Daryl Tiggle

This is a plug for drag sheet. We also have our students do a resume, and that often will help teachers with their... When you're a.

Andrew Palumbo 

College admissions officer or you're in a committee and you're reviewing a student's case, what are the admissions professionals looking at in those recommendations? What are they trying to draw out?

Daryl Tiggle

I think the word, and this will sound like an academic term, I think it's overall scholarship. Because the grade, the number grade, that is quick and easy to see and to ascertain. You know what an A or B is. But when they talk about the student's approach to scholarship, that's what really would impress me. One of the things I tell students is that regardless of if you're an introvert or extrovert, in the classroom, you want to make sure that your academic personality is never undersold. I'd like to see how students would fuel the conversation, the intellectual discourse in the classroom. So students who had a voice, that would come through in recommendations. Students who were resilient and were able to... And I tell my students, look, don't take your foot off the pedal so that you can show your acceleration later. But students who show a powerful ascension in their academic work, whether they have been A students, who had continued to be A students and then let their brilliance shine in the classroom that made their peers better students, or students who started off as B minus students and then became B plus students and then became A minus students.

Daryl Tiggle

They did that because they became more mature, and I saw them fooling around less in the classroom and sitting in the front of the class and offering up their ideas. So students whose growth is described in the recommendation, more than a chronicle of the grades that we're looking at that we see very easily. And when I tell my students, I go, Look, for my recommendation as a college counselor, I don't get to teach you. I don't get to see you every day in the classroom. I'm really more of an agent. My recommendation for you, you should want it to sound like it's coming from your favorite uncle. And that's because I know stuff about your person. So that's the thing that's different about the counselor recommendation is it's more of a personal recommendation than one of scholarship.

Andrew Palumbo 

So I think this is something parents struggle with a lot. You want to provide your child with all the opportunities, all the support they could possibly need. But you also know that after college is the real world. And so you're going through this developmental stage that's critical to your child's success. What should a parent's role be in the process, in supporting their student effectively, but also letting up enough to let the student guide the process? How do you find that balance as a parent?

Daryl Tiggle

One of the things we try to help our parents. Our senior parent night as we're launching into the process, we actually have a diagram that says, look, these are the things college counseling is taking care of, these are the things the student needs to take care of, and these are the things that parents should be on top of. I think with parents, I think having an involvement in the process where they at the front end, are trying to get an understanding of what is a good match for their children. I tell parents all the time, Look, you've had, at the time they get to me, 15 years to observe them. Even if they've gone into more of that teenage shell as they became 13, 14 year olds. You really do know who they are. A gain, I'll pick on the Ivy League. In so much as say, Look, I want my kid to go to an Ivy League college. I'm like, Well, look, Columbia is in New York City and Dartmouth is in AN over New Hampshire. They couldn't be no more different. Think less about the names of schools and what is going to be a good fit for your child.

Daryl Tiggle

I'm not kidding, just like that gas price idea I'd given earlier, literally, you've taken your child from birth and fit them into things. You put their bodies into things. I'm not kidding. That is what you're trying to do with college. R eally think about who your child is. You know who they are and think about fit. And what they need to do, drive them to college campuses, make sure they can go and visit places. Have a frank conversation about finances at some point so you can say, Look, we got so much money. Don't worry about it. Look wherever you want to. Or, Hey, these are our limitations in how we can support you financially. We still want you to go anywhere you want, but we're going to have to go and find more money. Or, These are our limitations financially. We'd like to stay within these so that we can support you later in life as well. Have that conversation early. But really, think about the fit. The fit thing, and that you've always focused until they started addressing themselves. When is that? 10, 11. You've for a long, long time paid like, oh, like, surg specific attention to how things fit them.

Daryl Tiggle

That's what the college process should be as well. Not name, fit.

Andrew Palumbo 

That's great. So as we wrap up here, I try to end each conversation seeking a piece of advice for students who are just starting out this process. Then after that, what's one good piece of advice you would give to parents?

Daryl Tiggle

For students, all right. For students, I'm going to give them two pieces. It's going to go back to the theme I've always been using the whole time. As long as you have a good idea... I'm sorry, some idea of who you are and what's a good fit for you, you cannot lose in this process. You can't lose that good school list. And someone just just give them my email, I'll send it to you. It's about a thousand schools. You cannot miss. So on the finding a good school piece, stop losing sleep over that and in fit. And I think this touches most children. And it's a simple thing. And it's something that I literally have on PowerPoint. Use the metaphor, don't worry about the label on the jeans. Think about how well that pair of jeans fits you and how it looks on you. If you can translate that to college, this should be a real... There's tons and tons and tons of jeans out there. Find the ones that fit you best, just like you always do. Just like you're going to do later on this week. Nice.

Andrew Palumbo 

How about for parents?

Daryl Tiggle

For parents. Also the same piece of information. Your child cannot... I've got lots. They cannot lose. The number of good schools out there abounds. What's my last piece of information out there for them? Look, and this is super simple. Keep loving your child the same way you did as they were going through other important times in their life. The same way they were starting school as kindergartners, support them that way. The same way you were excited about their Sweet 16 or Bop MISFA. Be equally excited about this because it's going to be even better and it's going to last longer. So keep loving them and be excited about it.

Andrew Palumbo 

Excellent. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation with Uncle Tiggle, Daryl Tiggle from the Friends School of Baltimore. Thank you so much for being on the podcast, Daryl.

Daryl Tiggle

I'd love it. And look, my niece, Kaylee, will take offense. Only she's allowed to call me Uncle Tiggle. She has put that law down in the playground before.

Andrew Palumbo 

Point taken, Daryl. Point taken. Thanks a lot.

Daryl Tiggle

All right.